The Topic: The War Has Started

[Lann Kirauc]

Originally posted by Marcus Elessar
Some of things Amercia has done have NOT been good, some of the wars Arerica has been in have not been just. America has put in dictactors like in Chile and supported them. Please, lets not be one eyed. But, I personally know most governments have blood on theirs hands at one time of their nation's history.

That however in this particular case is neither here nor there. Personally I have noted, the anti and pro USA statements have reached points of absurdity in the last few days.

Yes, and yet, America has provided countless billions in foreign aid. Has stepped into conflicts other countries did not want to bother. Whom remained non-participants. I am not saying the US is perfect because sadly it is not. No country is. I am very disturbed by some of the feelings shared on the board. The US are not invaders, didn't we involve ourselves in WWII to stop the Nazi fascists and Japanese imperialists, Korea to stop the north korean aggressors, Vietnam to halt an invading north vietnamese communist regime, Desert Storm to oust Saddam's forces out of Kuwait. We are not aggressors and if anything that power has been used to police rather than invade.

[imported_Taja Loraan]

I'm glad you speak for everyone. Please stop doing so, now.

I'm not trying to speak for everyone. Sorry if it seemed that way. I'm just speaking from experience, what I've heard, seen, and been told. The things I mentioned in my last post weren't just blind assumptions I made by myself - they were the combined viewpoints of various sources, all of whom are far more well informed than I am.

To expand on that... not everybody can be wrong, can they? AFAIK, there is less support for the war than there is opposition. Taking those British MPs for example: they ought to know more about the war and its background than any of us, right? And yet they resigned. There had to be some reasoning behind it.

Not to mention how helpful Pakistan has been with the US also.

Do they have much of a choice? In that sense, you could say Bangladesh also supports the war, because they seem to be on America's side. I can't quote exactly, but didn't Bush himself say something along the lines of "either you're with us, or against us"? Does Pakistan have the power or the resources to oppose the US? No.

And because I know full well that I will likely be criticised as being a terrorist supporter if I Don't make this disclaimer, I am neither saying that that what they did was right, Nor am I saying that the USA's actions are comparable to those of the Terrorists. I am just saying that the mentality behind the actions seems to have been quite similar =P

Basically what I was trying to say, just he managed to do it a lot more eloquently and actually got the point through.

[Dark Lord Dyzm]

Yep Marcus, that the U.S. for you. The Right hand trying to help the world, the left, screwing it over. Or, even some self screwing of the American people. We help, he send aid, we claim to be the good guys, all the while the Left Hand is accepting the bribe, looking for the deal, grabbing all it could grab.

[imported_Taja Loraan]

I have this anarchist newspaper magazine somewhere at home from back when Bush was bombing Afghanistan at the same time as he was supplying them with food and aid parcels. I should go find it.

[Sanis Prent]

AFAIK, there is less support for the war than there is opposition.

Where and in what context? There's approval rating in the 70's here.

Taking those British MPs for example: they ought to know more about the war and its background than any of us, right? And yet they resigned. There had to be some reasoning behind it.

Explain the 400+ or so that didn't resign, plz.

Do they have much of a choice?

They have two.

Does Pakistan have the power or the resources to oppose the US? No.

Neither does Iraq, and they choose to oppose us. That apparently makes no difference.

Basically what I was trying to say, just he managed to do it a lot more eloquently and actually got the point through.

Some personal perspective from my own nation, that has had a long, arduous history of unshackling itself from small-minded, racist bigots, that hide behind religion. These people root themselves so deeply into a society's culture that it takes a great effort to remove them. I live in the south, and I can assure you that it is a continuing process. And I'll tell you that I see no difference between a Black Panther, a Ku Klux Klansmen, or a member of al Qaeda, the PLO, Aby Sayyaf, Basque separatists, the FARC, etc. These people are the scum of the earth, and as much as some views may have infiltrated into various cultures, we must all make a great, concerted effort to remove them. I will never condone these people. It would be a slap in the face to the struggles I've seen in my own backyard.

[Sanis Prent]

Originally posted by Taja Loraan
I have this anarchist newspaper magazine somewhere at home from back when Bush was bombing Afghanistan at the same time as he was supplying them with food and aid parcels. I should go find it.

Anarchist propaganda? Sorry, I refuse to acknowledge anything from any group that supports violent terror, usurping, and overthrow of legitimate governments.

[Dark Lord Dyzm]

an anarchist magazine huh? bunch of fools who think chaos is bomb. But why don't they look at there magazine? See the words typed in nice little ordered lines. See how nice and neat the columns are... The views also, takes an ordered mine to see that. They claim to go against any established order... THEY LIE!!!


See, when we where dropping food and bombs on the Afhgans, we where aiming for 2 different people. The Food to the innocents, the bombs to the terrorists.

It almost like the Berlin Airdrops.

[imported_Taja Loraan]

Where and in what context? There's approval rating in the 70's here.

You're in the US. Off the top of my head, I can't say much for other countries, but I know there's an approvat rating of about 0 over here.

Taking those British MPs for example: they ought to know more about the war and its background than any of us, right? And yet they resigned. There had to be some reasoning behind it.

I was merely using that as an example. =P I can't explain their motives, nor can I explain those of the MP's who did resign. But you can't deny there is an awful lot of anti-war and anti-American sentiments throughout the world, and everybody can't be wrong or misinformed.

They have two.

One of which could possibly bring them a fate similar to that of Iraq.

Neither does Iraq, and they choose to oppose us. That apparently makes no difference.

They choose to oppose you, and they will inevitably be crushed. I don't think Pakistan wants the same happening to them.

These people root themselves so deeply into a society's culture that it takes a great effort to remove them.

That reminds me of something my aunt was telling me yesterday. I'm not sure if I agree and to what extent, but she said that although Bangladesh hasn't been attacked yet by the US military, we have been attacked in terms of culture, etc. Now, don't go starting on me for saying this, but it is a fact that Muslims all over the world feel oppressed by western influences. In that respect, aren't they trying to remove these foreign influences from their own culture? (I don't think I explained that very clearly, but ah well.)

Anarchist propaganda? Sorry, I refuse to acknowledge anything from any group that supports violent terror, usurping, and overthrow of legitimate governments.

Well, no, not quite anarchist propaganda, and definitely not supporting "violent terror". I forgot what it was called, but it did have some valid facts in there.

[Lann Kirauc]

Originally posted by Dark Lord Dyzm
Yep Marcus, that the U.S. for you. The Right hand trying to help the world, the left, screwing it over. Or, even some self screwing of the American people. We help, he send aid, we claim to be the good guys, all the while the Left Hand is accepting the bribe, looking for the deal, grabbing all it could grab.

Grabbing what Dyzm? America has consistantly spent billions helping other nations, so much so, we are indebt. What are grabbing, please enlightened me. We are funding the cost of this war on Iraq alone, us alone, and we are going to dig deep in our pockets even despite the potential of freezing Saddam's assets and utilizing them if the opportunity even arises which it might not... to rebuild Iraq with it's own sovereignty. But please enlighten us to what America is grabbing considering the money we put in ourselves.

[imported_Taja Loraan]

..there's the whole deal with oil, for one...

:: waits to be burned by Sanis ::

[Sanis Prent]

That reminds me of something my aunt was telling me yesterday. I'm not sure if I agree and to what extent, but she said that although Bangladesh hasn't been attacked yet by the US military, we have been attacked in terms of culture, etc. Now, don't go starting on me for saying this, but it is a fact that Muslims all over the world feel oppressed by western influences. In that respect, aren't they trying to remove these foreign influences from their own culture? (I don't think I explained that very clearly, but ah well.)

I fly the battleflag of the Rebellion over my bed. That is something that has become a symbol of many things to many people. To me, it is a symbol of my home, its culture, its history, and its values. You have not been here, and it would be difficult for you to understand the massive differences that have divided, and to an extent still do divide the North from the South in America. The Civil War (War of Northern Aggression) was fought to emancipate the slaves. As any southerner can tell you, not every Confederate was a slaveowner, not every Southerner is a racist, just as not every follower of Islam is a fundamental terrorist.

BUT...

Some people have tendencies ingrained so deeply in them, so inherent that they cannot see the poison for what it is. I've seen it all around me, in the casual talk of people that I love. They are not malicious, but the things they see and say reflect bad things that are a relic of times past. In that cultural aspect, we are not dissimilar. I do not lay accusation on all Muslims, nor does my nation. It is against those bigots, the barbarians who scream Jihad, and blow themselves and others to pieces in a prayer of salvation wrapped in hatred. These people have, as have the slaveowners and racists in my home, have POISONED our ways of life. It is slow to repair this kind of damage, but it must be done, and it MUST NOT be excused...ever...ever...ever.

I still fly the flag of the Rebellion, because I know there are things of my culture that shine beyond the filth that some may identify to that flag. We are not against your way of life, but the evil that lies and tries to assimilate itself among you.

[Sanis Prent]

Originally posted by Taja Loraan
..there's the whole deal with oil, for one...

:: waits to be burned by Sanis ::

The Oil conspiracy is absolute bunk and is a ridiculous grasp at straws.

[Lann Kirauc]

oil that is never going to be ours but through contract.

[Marcus Telcontar]

Originally posted by Lann Kirauc
Grabbing what Dyzm? America has consistantly spent billions helping other nations, so much so, we are indebt. What are grabbing, please enlightened me. We are funding the cost of this war on Iraq alone, us alone, and we are going to dig deep in our pockets even despite the potential of freezing Saddam's assets and utilizing them if the opportunity even arises which it might not... to rebuild Iraq with it's own sovereignty. But please enlighten us to what America is grabbing considering the money we put in ourselves.

-_-

Spare me the propaganda. Form the perspective of being outside of the USA, you might spend money, but it's not well used and nor is your debt caused by aid spend. Your aid budjet is three fifths of bugger all of the defence budget for example. And ebfore you answer, do some research and see if Australia just happens to, as a percentage of it's GDP, outspend the USA and also consistently go first into areas peacekeeping is needed and is always one of the first to go on the call of other nations when trouble brews. Before you start crowing about how humanitarian the USA is, maybe you should look at a nation with a tradion of aid and armed support when their allies call, even when it's nothign to do with us. And yet, simply put, it's not really a big deal. It's simply what Aussies have a tradition of doing.

I might add, when Australia called the USA and asked for help in east Timor in 1999, we were told it was our problem and for us to deal with it.

My apologies for the curlish tone and I would say the USA do have aid and do contribute to humanitarian cuases. Quite well in some cases, but your not the doyen of aid and support. You only have a big effect cause you a great deal bigger than say piddly little ol' Down Under, which has more Kanagroos than humans.

And as for anarcists - spare me their propaganda as well. That's far worse. That's in the main lies and complete trash - and a postion not defendable.

Really, this pro / anti propaganda is nothing more than a peeing match. The extremist views on both sides are completely wrong. Somewhere in the middle is the truth.

[Destiny Stormrider]

I know I'm kinda late on the subject, but the reason I didn't like the US (notice the past tense) was because I found that they didn't mind their own business. Yeah, they're trying to help by becoming the third party in disputes and all, but they should let the two original countries solve their problem by themselves. And usually, it ends up being on one country's side, it should be neutral. (this is just my opinion, not necessarily right...)

About the missiles and weapons Iraq has, well I think it's kinda good for them. Yeah, they're dangerous (or so the US and Britain claim) but what if they were attacked by another country before the US? They'd NEED those weapons! cause I can't think of a country that would go help 'em, with the crap they've done before!

[ReaperFett]

Taking those British MPs for example: they ought to know more about the war and its background than any of us, right? And yet they resigned. There had to be some reasoning behind it.

How many resigned. Three? Four? 2/3 of the House of Commons voted YES. Maybe THEY know more than you?

..there's the whole deal with oil, for one...

Yeah, the whole oil deal. I've got news for you boys and girls, France gains more from Iraqi oil than the US. They, as well as Germany, as also those that gain the most from trade with Iraq. But WORD FORBID, that cant be known, can it? Because France voted no for GOOD, while evil America is biased, right?

[ReaperFett]

About the missiles and weapons Iraq has, well I think it's kinda good for them. Yeah, they're dangerous (or so the US and Britain claim) but what if they were attacked by another country before the US? They'd NEED those weapons! cause I can't think of a country that would go help 'em, with the crap they've done before!

12 years ago, they were ORDERED to disarm. O-R-D-E-R-E-D. Oh no, they might need them! Dont invade Kuwait then. They LIED that they had got rid of them, LIED that they didnt exist, and were meant to applaud them? Spare me that, please.

[Peter McCoy]

Bloody hell, this thread's going crazy! I didn't even know it existed.

Hey Shabnam, Cruise Missiles-Shmooze Missiles! I'll set up my amp on the Gange's Delta and deflect 'em with the distortion!

[Peter McCoy]

Speaking of distortion - imagine if Saddam was a Nirvana fan.

"And I swear that I don't have a gun....."

[imported_Taja Loraan]

How many resigned. Three? Four? 2/3 of the House of Commons voted YES. Maybe THEY know more than you?

Uhm... I never claimed to know better than anyone. In fact I admitted to knowing just about nothing about the particulars on this subject. I'm just saying what I think; I didn't ask for anyone to agree. No need to get personal.

We are not against your way of life, but the evil that lies and tries to assimilate itself among you.

I realize that Bush has said time and again that this is not a war against a religion, but a regime. I personally don't dispute that. But that doesn't necessarily mean the public agrees. I remember how after 9/11, mosques in London had to be closed down, and there were public displays promoting the killing of Muslims. There are plenty of misconceptions out there about Islam, and these terrorist attacks haven't exactly helped improve that image. You and I both know that it isn't a war against Islam, but others might not. I'm not disagreeing with you; I'm just saying how it is.

And as for anarcists - spare me their propaganda as well. That's far worse. That's in the main lies and complete trash - and a postion not defendable.

Okay, I was wrong. It wasn't an anarchist thing, but you probably wouldn't like what it said in any case (a lot of conspiracy-ish stuff *ahem*).

Really, this pro / anti propaganda is nothing more than a peeing match. The extremist views on both sides are completely wrong. Somewhere in the middle is the truth.

Word.

Japanese imperialists, Korea to stop the north korean aggressors, Vietnam to halt an invading north vietnamese communist regime

That said, people living in those countries are still suffering from the after-effects of war, even now. What if the same happens in Iraq?

Hey Shabnam, Cruise Missiles-Shmooze Missiles! I'll set up my amp on the Gange's Delta and deflect 'em with the distortion!

LMAO I don't doubt that at all, Peter.