TPM falling further and further behind Titanic ...

[Jedi3177]

It is funny to read some of these posts. As a new poster I will just make an observation. JJWR or whatever, is a prime example of someone who believes whatever they read. Jonathan is the quintessense of someone on the right track that just seems to lack the backbone to state his full convictions. Keep it up. You'll get to the bottom of this yet.

[YadsLH 2]

*Jonathan is the quintessense of someone on the right track that just seems to lack the backbone to state his full convictions.* My friend, you certainly must be new here if you believe that. Great posts, Jon, BTW! (OK, forget that, I just read your other posts, and you certainly aren't new here!)

[JonathanLB]

Yads. That's your new name, huh, Yaddle is your old name, or whatever it was, Yaddle's little helper? hehe. Dude I can't keep your names straight. =) Oh well at least they have "yad" in them. Jedi3177 is obviously just Jedi3167. You realize that is what he kept telling me before is that I just do not have the guts to say that I don't believe the box office numbers are right. Truth be told, I very much believe the box office numbers are accurate, how can they not be? I do not believe everything I read my friend, but I do certainly believe that a firm that is entrusted with such important business would do a totally accurate job with their reporting. I mean, I do think it is *possible* that some tickets sold for TPM were not accounted for, and there was some fraud by theater owners, but big deal. That may have been a few million, but I'm sorry, what about all the kids who said "two for Star Wars," and then they snuck into South Park. Dude you know that happened, so it works both ways, it really does. I have to say that what I saw Jedi3167 turn into after the release of TPM was sad. He was a great fan before the release you know, not many will believe that, but he was. He really has the right qualities, and he did defend SW, he loves the movies, he is a good fan. But this conspiracy stuff goes so far beyond what is reality, and it also is rude to offend fellow fans by saying they are the ones out of line for not believing in conspiracies. I don't think I'm a bad fan or person because I don't believe in this conspiracy, I guess it is possible, but it is so extremely unlikely to me that I cannot believe it. Tell you what, if Lucas someday says that he suspects that may have happened, I may buy into it, but without that, I don't believe Lucas would let his money be stolen without knowing.

[jjwr]

Well I know who this is aimed at, I won't cherry coat it. "TPM bashers are dick heads. Total dick heads, I don't associate with the enemy side, and that is the enemy side, SW fans or not." Now that was a great one Jon, ever heard that everone has a right to their own opinion? You've obviously got yours, though you seem to think its ok to force you opinion down everone elses throught, then bash the hell out of them when they disagree with you or say some little thing against TPM. Your the kind of person that Alec Guiness was talking about when he made those comments about SW Fans. "You need a dictionary or you need to rewrite your post. Look it up, profit is defined as the money you make" I never said which movie made the most money, that ones obvious. "Once again, I am RIGHT, you are WRONG" Another great one-liner. Theres no middle ground with you is there? Its your opinion is the law, and everyone elses is crap as long as they don't agree with what you say. Ok, back to the most profitable movie thing, this is what I was talking about. These figures aren't including marketing, etc, just cost of the movie to make and box office totals(US only). TPM cost 110 Million and has made roughly 425 Million, so a profit of roughly 386%(I'm no mathematician these numbers could be wrong, wait I might have spelled that wrong, I think he was right I need a dictionary). Blair Witch cost roughly 30,000 and made about 140Million(number could be wrong, just a guess, which is a profit of 4700%(again number could be wrong, all I know is its a big percentage). Ok so TPM made 386% and BWP made 4700%, which one looks more profitable from those numbers? Again its obvious TPM made more money straight out, but thats not what I was talking about. By the way, how much did Titanic make in the Box Office? By your definitions I bet it made more than TPM, course by mine it didn't, which do you prefer? "I'm serious, I won't sit here and debate unless you get in line and start making sense." Wierd comment, seeing as you don't really debate, its all one sided as far as your concerned, did you notice above how I actually agreed with something you wrote? Do you ever do that, probably not, seeing as its not something that came out of your mouth. Now if you wish you can write back and give me a definition of debate and probably prove me wrong there too, if it make syou feel better than by all means go ahead. "That's not true. The first time that Exhibitor Relations reports that people stood in line for a movie trailer was recorded as 1989 when the first Batman movie was released. Just so you know..." Anything to prove someone wrong, even when it goes against SW This was the first time it was recorded, does that mean its the first time it happened? "What the hell are you talking about?" Star Wars, what are you talking about? "The Phantom Menace is one of the best movies of all time" Hmmmm....a little biased are you? Now heres where the opinion thing comes in, you may think its one of the best movies of all time, and in your opinion it probably is. I enjoyed it, thought it was a great movie, and a good addition to the SW films, but not one of the best movies of all time(hey another opinion). "I have a serious feeling you don't know crap about TPM. You saw it about 3 times, and you are sitting here bashing it. You expect to win an argument when you probably don't even know half of what I do about the movie? Puh-lease." Oh I shouldn't even go here, who said I was bashing TPM? I've said repeated times I've thought the movie was great and enjoyed it, I loved the movie and will watch it a ton of times when it comes out on video. The only thing I've been discussing is its box office totals, numbers, etc. Ok, I did say I thought the story was a little weak, but you know what, thats my OPINION. Do you not get the concept of opinions? Do you feel its ok to bash the hell out of someone because their opinion differs from yours? Yes I saw TPM only three times, but you know what, thats cause I only needed to see it 3 times to understand it and pull it all in, is it my fault it take syou 34 viewings of a movie to get it? As for winning this argument, with you I think thats impossible, not because your that brilliant, but quite the contrary, your very small minded, you think everything Star Wars and TPM is gold, it can do no wrong, so no matter what someone says your gonna say something probably rude and derogatory back to them saying TPM rules. "Go see it again and get back to me, see it again maybe 10 times and you MIGHT understand it." Now if were in the middle of a indepth conversation about the plot, etc then that might actualy mean something, but seeing as we're talking mostly about profits, money, etc, then me seeing it a few times won't accomplish much. "The story is extremely deep, and if you don't understand that it's not my problem or Lucas', he didn't make the movie for people who are unwilling to see past the special effects." The story was about as deep as a my belly button(take my word for it, not very deep). Yes it was a fun movie, but the story wasn't that deep, it had a lot of eye candy, some cool fight sequences, a ok story. But you know what? I enjoyed the movie, I thought it was great, but because I've said one bad thing about TPM you seem to think I hate it and didn't enjoy it or get it at all. I understood the movie, I knew what was going on. "The biggest "event" I should say. " This I agree with you on, the biggest event, yes, the biggest movie, no. "You really don't understand the box office in the slightest and it is getting frusterating arguing with you, I'm not going to go on much beyond this. " Ok so what didn't I understand? Outside of your definition above what else don't I understand? So far what we've both said is opinions, and we both have our own, theres not really anything to understand here. "Listen, a movie does not do well simply because it has a brand name attached." When the Brand name is SW, yes it does. Before it came out it got horrible reviews, yet people still went to see it. Why? Because it was a SW movie, I didn't care about the reviews, I was there the second day, I wanted to see the next Star Wars movie. Now where did I say it was a bad movie? I never said that, TPM was a good movie, on its own I think it would have done well, maybe 200 Million, but it also made a lot more money cause it was a SW movie. Heck it made something like 150 Million its first 5 days, do you think it would have made that much if it wasn't a SW movie? Honestly? I'll agree on the Batman ones, the last one royally sucked, I never even went to see it, the sad thing was it made 100 Million still. "I believe it's pretty obvious what the deal with you is, you didn't like TPM so you think clearly everyone else must not have liked it either, they must only like "the experience" that it "reminds" them of that they had" Maybe this one isn't aimed at me, but in case it is(apologies if this isn't aimed at me). At which point did I say I didn't like TPM? Was it the multiple times I've said its a great movie(both in this post and others?). Now on the flip side, you obviously thought TPM was the greatest movie ever, so clearly everone else must think the same way? And anyone who doesn't deservers to flamed and is a dick head? Did I get that one right? "MOST people must hate TPM just like you obviously do" Would you mind doing some fact searching of your own? How about going through this thread and checking out my posts and reading where I've said I liked this movie? Do you think I got 2500 posts on this board because I hate the movie. I'm not even gonna go into the phenom issue, that ones been beat to death, both of us have our own opinions and debating that one more isn't gonna do any good. Now for my closing, I never liked you much when I saw your posts before the split, you were rude and belittled people for their opinions, and thats the same as you do now. Maybe you revolve your life around TPM and go to sleep in your TPM sheets and jammies, but not everone does. Just because I haven't seen the movie 34 times or dropped 3000 in SW merchandise does that mean I'm not a Star Wars fan? Does that give you the right to label me and everyone else a @#%$ cause we might voice some little displeasure with TPM? You know, grow up. I don't know how old you are, or what you do in life, but I can't imagine you'd get very far with your attitude, especially if it spreads to everything you do/like. I'll state this again, everone has a right to their own opinion. I respect yours, though I disagree with them(the point of this debate) and your disagree mine, but instead of labeling me as a dick head, and a TPM basher and saying I obviously hate TPM or I don't know how deep the movie is, how about proving me wrong in a intelligent discussion? The added defitions were nice, it made it look like you know what your talking about, but instead of just tossing things in how about discussing things rationally? How about trying to see things from both sides of the fence?

[CraigFaris]

Since this is the Star Wars vs. Titanic thread, and everyone is so proud of how many times they visited the latest installment of Star Wars, how about coming clean and telling us how many times you saw Titanic? Come on, be honest even if it was only because your girlfriend or wife put a gun to your head. You see, I think Star Wars was the greatest Sci-Fi series in history, however I have also studied the sinking of the Titanic for over three decades. (can these two ideals coexist?) I have also been to the site where she sank and met two of the remaining five suvivors, so obviously, I saw Titanic more than once.

[jjwr]

I didn't see it until it came onto HBO, I probably wouldn't have watched it then if it hadn't been for my gf's 7yr old daughter who loves the movie. The reason I avoided it was because I didn't care much for DiCaprio, and when a movie makes that much of a splash I tend to avoid them for a while afterwards(well if its somthing I hadn't planned on seeing). I'd say now I've probably seen it twice, though only once from beginning to end, the rest were just pieces put together from various partial viewings. I didn't think it was that bad, a little long, but not a bad movie.

[Kyp Durron]

Saw it twice with a girlfriend who really, really loved it. I thought it was a good movie, but not for it's historical value. If I was oblivious to the history of Titanic, this movie wouldn't have helped me one bit. It was a good love story though...but, it's been done before. I think what made it nice for me was the fact that I had such a low expectation for it and I came out liking it. But what's extraordinarily kool for me is that I had big expectations for TPM, and it still exceeded them. TPM is the perfect apetizer for the perfect meal (EP2) and perfect desert (EP3) Hmm, now I'm hungry =)

[JonathanLB]

"Its your opinion is the law, and everyone elses is crap as long as they don't agree with what you say." No. That is not true, you have the right to your opinions, but if you read my post again (and please do just read that one part), I was saying that I was right, and you were wrong on that point. It was not my *opinion* it was a *fact*. I clearly pointed you to the definition of the word you were using. Now I understand what you are saying by your last post, you need to be more clear though because it does get confusing. You are talking about profit margins, which relates the ratio of how much you spent to how much you earned. That makes sense, and yes from that perspective there is no doubt BWP was the biggest movie ever, there is just no doubt. But we were talking about Profit, that is I believe what you said before, profit. I said a fact, The Phantom Menace was more profittable than BWP. That isn't up for debate, it is a fact. Do you see what I'm saying? I'm not pushing my opinion on you and saying it is right, I am telling you a fact, if you won't understand that fact, then you must be one of those people that says "don't confuse me with the facts, my minds made up!" JJWR, TPM did not have a weak plot, you saw it 3 times, clearly you did not understand it. Do you see why I saw it 34 times? You don't, do you. You would if you had seen it about 10 times, then I believe you would have a great understanding of the plot, which was, FYI, deeper than any of the SW movies yet. The reason is because it is far more subtle. While ROTJ is complex, and ESB tangled, ANH fairly straight forward, TPM is in fact very subtle and can seem deceptively simple. That is the trap I believe you fell into, you are not seeing past the special effects, you are still stuck on them. It's ok, I was there too man. When I saw it for the first time, I couldn't care less about the plot, the effects were just friggin' unreal, I had already read much of the book so I felt I had the plot semi-understood. Then when I saw those visuals I was just knocked off my feet. So then I saw it again, I was too tired, it was the 19th still, my 2nd viewing that day. I only got the visuals out of it. Friday, saw it again, too tired, only concentrated on great effects. Finally on Saturday after a good rest I saw it 2 times that day, and I felt I started to understand it better, but I made constant progress throughout the summer. It really is that deep of a movie, and I think you've not given it a fair chance. But, once again that is just my opinion. JJWR, I don't like TPM bashers, that comment was not directed at you, you're not like a "basher" as such, you just aren't a happy camper clearly. If you think the SW movies are about great visual effects, you dont know why you're a SW fan. The SW movies are much more than effects vehicles, it would be sad if that's all you enjoy TPM for. That is why I don't believe you when you say you enjoyed it, I don't think you're being upfront with me. You know you expected far more, you think the movie was mediocre. I can read that into your posts, it isn't hard. JJWR, we will agree with each other on many things in the future, and I think we should leave any bitterness towards each other in this thread, and in this thread alone. That is something you must learn about me, I never take my arguments beyond the thread, so while I can be against you here, and I may even seem rude sometimes, to you, but I really won't take them beyond this thread alone. We can be friends still, but only if you reckognize we are just debating these issues. JJWR, let me help you understand what I am telling you. I really don't LIKE correcting people, it puts me in the position of the "know-it-all" kind of thing, and I don't appreciate being there. However I do like helping other fans get their facts straight if they want, and I know more about TPM than many other people, for certain reasons, of which will become clear if you know me better. For one, my archives contain the largest database of information concerning The Phantom Menace around, I have no doubt of that... When I was talking about the box office, let me make clear what I am saying. You are ABSOLUTELY correct when you say that the opening weekend was OBVIOUSLY HUGELY influenced by the mere fact that this movie said "Star Wars." That is not the point I am trying to fight you on, no way, you are totally correct! But what I am telling you, and you must believe me on this, is that a bad movie would not have kept going. That is all I am trying to say. Remember The Lost World? Jurassic Park was a big deal, people lined up for LW because it was JP2, you know, and it had a built in audience. JP was the biggest worldwide movie in history until Titanic! But what happened to LW 2nd weekend? It dropped over 50% I believe, and it fell from $72 million to just over $30 million. With The Phantom Menace, however, it debuted at $64.7 million, to fall only a slim 21% second weekend. There is a reason for that, and it is because TPM did phenomenal at the box office and with word of mouth travelling that it was a really good movie! But it didn't just end there, it continued onto Week 3, 4, 5, etc. Weekend 3 would be a bad example, TPM fell 36% to $33 million, that is traditional because Memorial Day weekend is so big. But what was very impressive was the $25 million it pulled in against Austin Powers 2, a less than 25% decline once again! You must understand, it wasn't doing this good of business for 8, 10, 12, 14 weeks straight just because the name says "Star Wars," that only propells you past the first week, if you're lucky, 2 weeks. The reason it kept on goign was because it was well received by the audiences. That is all I am trying to tell you JJWR, like Morpheus said to Neo, I can show you the door, but you have to step through it. I can tell you the facts, but if you are unwilling to believe them, there is nothing further I can do.. I hope some of this post makes sense or clears something up at least, I don't want you to think I'm a total A-hole, whoops too late. =) You are no less of a fan because you have seen TPM less times, or spent less money. NONE of those things matter in my view of fandom. Understanding of the movies and knowledge of the phenomenon (Star Wars in general) is integral to my defintion of the best fans, but that's just me. I love finding fans who know a lot, and I can really learn from them. I have only met a few that really were smart enough they could teach me things even I had not thought of, Dedalus on TFN was one of those. In fact, HyperEopie on my forum is a brilliant SW fan, IMO, and I've learned a lot from him just seeing TPM 2 times in theaters with him. he lives in my area...

[Darth23]

Acctually they spent about a million bucks on marketing and distribution for BWP, which brings the percentage down. Sounds like 2 different things are being tallked about. TPM made more money (gross - expenses) BWP had a higher return, percentage wise. Of course most studios would rather have 300 million dollars than 139 million dollars... Plus, BWP was a total fluke. I'm speaking about the phenomenon and how well it worked to get people to the theaters. It didn't really have legs though. there was a lot of buzz when it was only playing tin a few theaters. It hit a thousand and made a surprising amount of money. The next week it doubled its screen count and made almost the exact same amount of money. In other words it's per screen average dropped by about half after a lot of people finally saw the thing. I'm sure there will be a lot of BWP clones coming out now. hopefully there may be some really good low budget movies that a lot of people get to see.

[Dutchy]

and here are some comments: Jonathan, <blockquote>quote:<hr>"And, yes, I very much stand by what I said, The Phantom Menace was the biggest movie in the history of Hollywood. Box office or no, it doesn't matter, Titanic was very large after it came out and was one of the biggest movies ever, TPM was the biggest before and still huge after with excellent success, it was the biggest movie of all time. The biggest "event" I should say."[/quote] C'mon Jonathan. In YOUR opinion TPM is the biggest, greatest and best movie in history. You're exaggerating if you say it IS the biggest, greatest and best movie in history. I'm glad you liked it so much, but don't state your own opinion as if it's the general one. <blockquote>quote:<hr>"Did you know that in a poll conducted on Yahoo.com, and yes I have a press release on this, over 50% of their users believed that TPM could make $1 billion at the US box office alone?"[/quote] I didn't know that and I doubt if it's representative at all. Not even that many die hard Star Wars thought TPM could do 1M, let alone a representative part of the (Internet) population. <blockquote>quote:<hr>"The declines of TPM at the box office were very good, and not matched by many other blockbusters. Only Jurassic Park had that good of staying power, and it was no better, just equal. But TPM sold more tickets."[/quote] You're definitely forgetting Titanic here, which had better staying power than any movie (including TPM) in movie history. <blockquote>quote:<hr>"Nor am I now, I still want to see it more, and that's after 34 times."[/quote] Just 34? Jonathan! I was SURE you'd be way beyond your 50 goal by now. <blockquote>quote:<hr>"Let me take a deep breath so I can try to post without bashing the hell out of some posters here."[/quote] LOL! There's our Jonathan. <blockquote>quote:<hr>"So that means you have $140 million for Blair Witch, minus the ad budget of about $30 million, and you get $110 million. For TPM you have $430, minus the $115 budget, minus the $20 million ad budget (yes I can confirm it was no more than $20 million), and you get $295 million."[/quote] I'm not totally sure where Titanic stands at this, but if it didn't spend more than $100M on ad then it was more profitable than both BWP and TPM. Looking at sheer boxoffice gross that is. <blockquote>quote:<hr>"The CG was horrible, the rest was excellent. The sound, excellent, the costumes, excellent, the sets, top notch, the CG was the only thing lacking OTHER THAN the plot."[/quote] Can you give an example on where CG was used? I'm not even sure if I know... the breathing in the water was one I think. <blockquote>quote:<hr>"What the hell are you talking about? The Phantom Menace is one of the best movies of all time, it had an excellent story line just like the other 3 SW movies. I have a serious feeling you don't know crap about TPM. You saw it about 3 times, and you are sitting here bashing it. You expect to win an argument when you probably don't even know half of what I do about the movie? Puh-lease."[/quote] Couldn't disagree with you more. In my opinion TPM's plot was its worst feature. The narrative structure was plain horrible. Sure, it had a good story, but the way it was brought to us sucked. The scenes seemed to have been put in in random order and there was no leading thread running through TPM. <blockquote>quote:<hr>"I saw it 34 times? You don't, do you. You would if you had seen it about 10 times."[/quote] OK, I can imagine, but if TPM really requires 10 times of viewing to understand the plot then that's just insane. A good plot only needs one viewing and a second sometimes to appreciate it even more. If it really takes 10 times then I couldn't care less about it. By the way, I saw it 3 times and I think I get the plot. It didn't appeal to me, but that's OK, just a matter of taste. <blockquote>quote:<hr>"It really is that deep of a movie, and I think you've not given it a fair chance."[/quote] If I have to see a movie 10 times then that's not fair of the director. Not the other way round. <blockquote>quote:<hr>"With The Phantom Menace, however, it debuted at $64.7 million, to fall only a slim 21% second weekend. There is a reason for that, and it is because TPM did phenomenal at the box office and with word of mouth travelling that it was a really good movie! But it didn't just end there, it continued onto Week 3, 4, 5, etc."[/quote] Wholeheartedly agreed. TPM's drop offs thoughout its run were very impressive. It didn't look like it would do so good after its third week, but it did and it deservers credit for it. All in all it ended right where I thought it would, but I was still impressed by its staying power throughout the summer. <blockquote>quote:<hr>"Isn't it fair to say that TPM is a phenomenon SOLEY based on the fact that the highest grossing 4th part to any series has never before taken in over $150 million, but TPM made almost 3 times that much?"[/quote] No, it isn't. If TPM were released only few years after ROTJ then it would, but after 16 years of waiting the boxoffice run it had was to be expected. <blockquote>quote:<hr>"What about the term "highest grossing sequel ever," does that ring a bell or does it just kind not interest you?"[/quote] TPM isn't just another sequel. First of all it's Star Wars and most of all there are, like I said, 16 years between the prior and next installment. Therefore it isn't much of a sequel as in a successful movie gets a successor a few years later, but it's more a whole new movie of the most popular series. So Jonathan... now that TPM has left the theaters (I think) are ya going to (if you haven't already that is) finally see The Sixth Sense? : ) jjwr, <blockquote>quote:<hr>"Cost $40,000 to make, was very amateurish, yet made $100+Million, I'd call that a phenom, It would probably be safe to say that BWP was the most profitable movie in history."[/quote] I agree. BWP's gross was more impressive than TPM's relatively spoken. TPM was very impressive, but it wasn't much more (if at all) than we all expected. CraigFaris, Your post made a lot of sense except for one thing. You said: <blockquote>quote:<hr>"TPM didn't make as much as Titanic simply because it didn't have as broad a market!"[/quote] That's very true, but then you also say: <blockquote>quote:<hr>"You can berate Titanic as much as you like, think it was only a fluke, that it was only a "chick flick", but the numbers don't lie."[/quote] and <blockquote>quote:<hr>"The summer would have provided only more opportunity for the silly girls to flock to see it."[/quote] You're contradicting yourself there. If Titanic was only a "chick-flick" and only "silly girls" went to see it then that doesn't leave much of an audience for TPM, since, as you said, it has less broad a market. So to be short: Titanic was so not a chick-flick. It had an extremely wide demographic and attracted people who hadn't been to theaters for a decade or two or more.

[jjwr]

Cause its gotten blown a bit out of proportion, but that tends to happen. The part about the opinions that was my observation of some of your posts, both now and in the past when you were a more regular poster here, thats how it seemed to me. I see what your saying about the profits(etc), maybe I should have used a different term, but in my opinion thats how I felt it should have been used. Maybe if you had asked politely what I meant instead of shoving a definition down my throat and the I"M RIGHT YOUR WRONG thing, then it would have gone over better, courtesy is a good thing, it can do great things for you. The fact that TPM made more money than BWP was never in question, I know its a Fact that it made more, but funny thing is its also a fact that BWP made more money than TPM and Titanic combined Ok back to the weak plot, I'm going to say for the last time I LOVE THESE MOVIES!!! I don't enjoy them just for the eye candy, or the special effects, as far as these movies go I'm just as much of a fan as you are, I'm just not as fanatical. I truly do not mean this as a insult, but I feel I have a very good understanding of hte plot, the side twists, the hidden agenda's etc, and it only took me 3 times to get it, maybe it took you 10, 15, whatever, but I understood the plot, I got the whole thing. I still don't think it was that deep, there were some hidden and obscured things, but that doesn't make it deep. As was said in a thread above, you shouldn't have to see a movie a ton of times to get the plot, and I think this is the same way. If anything its the Special effects and hidden stuff that you'd have to go back for. Please don't talk down to me like I'm a child, I understood the movie, and it only took 3 times, again it was a great movie, and yes I did see past the special effects(on the 2nd time) and by the third I think I've got a pretty good understanding of what went on. I'm a very happy camper, I never said the SW movies were about special effects, I've watched them all lots of times. Actually you really can't watch the old ones for the special effects anymore cause their so outdated, the new one had cutting edge special effects and they were very good. Mediocre, yes. Is that wrong? I didn't think it was the second coming, I enjoyed it very much, but with so much buildup and the chance to relive childhood memories did everyone really expect this movie to please completely? I was hoping for the same feeling I got from the original movies, and that obviously won't happen cause I"m not a kid anymore, but I still enjoyed it a lot, and I'm sure I'll enjoy it for many years to come, you can put words into my mouth and say I don't get it, or I'm not being truthfull with you, but I have. Why would I not be? I enjoyed the movie, but personally I don't think its as big as your making it out to be. And thats my opinion,I have a right to it, and because its my opinion doesn't mean I do'nt like the SW movies, or I'm hiding something, etc, I just didn't think it was the greatest SW movie. As far as the box office, thats all I meant, being a SW movie affected the gross of this movie, I never said it was a bad movie, and it kept going because people liked it, and wanted to see it again and again. But flat out it wouldn't have gotten anywhere near as much if it hadn't been a SW movie. I do'nt think TPM did well because of word of mouth, everyone already knew about it, and if anything the word of mouth was bad, a lot of critics and what not thought it was dissapointing. But thats why they called this the first critics proof movie, no one cared, everyone wanted to go see the new SW movie, thats why it made so much the following weekends. "I can tell you the facts, but if you are unwilling to believe them, there is nothing further I can do.." Please stop acting so @#%$ again your making it sound like everything you say is right. A lot of that was your opinion, the only things that were fact were the box office numbers. Maybe it being a SW movie made it get most of its money, maybe it didn't, theres no way to tell, lets leave that at that. I enjoy the Star Wars movies, maybe I don't know every little detail of them, but who cares, all I wanna know about Star Wars is what I see in the movies.

[Phantom of the Opera]

I just waded through this entire thread and thought I'd offer my opinions, which I should point out are mine alone and not intended to be the final word. First, I am one of those who grew up with Star Wars and, yes, I waited 20 years for TPM to come out. I would have gone to see it if the main character was Barney, simply because it was Star Wars. However, I would not have gone more than once which I did do. In point of fact, I love almost all Sci-Fi films and while I do go to see other types of movies, I label myself as primarily a Sci-Fi fan. I went into Star Wars with mixed expectations. On the one hand, I was hoping for a "Star Wars" movie which is to say something approaching a religious experience. On the other hand, I had been led to believe that this episode was more "kid'ish" and a bit weak in plot. When I went, I found the Star Wars magic to be there and, while I agree that the plot was a bit thinner than some of the original SW films, it was still better than I had anticipated from the somewhat negative comments I had heard. As for Titanic, at first I refused to go see it at all. The hype turned me off and I did think it was a movie for the Leo-loving teeny-bopper set, my own daughter included here. It also was not what I'd generally describe as "my type of movie". Eventually, however, I did go to see it and I was moved beyond all expectations. Everyone is different and while I was deeply affected by it others were not. Just for the record, I saw TPM 3 times in the theatre and Titanic either 2 or 3 there, so I may not be regarded as worthy of even having an opinion with so few viewings. For me, however, I rarely see a film more than once in the theatre. Bottom line, I found both movies to be excellent. While I live in a Sci-Fi/Star Wars world in my entertainment tastes generally, I thoroughly enjoyed Titanic. Forced to choose which movie I would call the best, I would pick Titanic (which will not make me too popular here). Titanic was a true phenomenon by itself. TPM is a part of the larger Star Wars phenomenon and does not stand alone to the same degree as Titanic. Just a bit of a personal aside. Not that you're necessarily interested and it will probably get me some extra bashing, but having read through the thread, I find JonathanLB to be a complete self-absorbed "di**-head" (to use his own term) who completely pisses me off and view JJWR, his nemisis and also the moderator, as a more reasonable, open-minded and articulate individual.

[jjwr]

Good post, I definetly agree with your point about Titanic being the phenomonon while TPM being more a part of the SW phenomonon. Thats the point I was trying to make, but it got lost in the shuffle and I gave that one up. I'm glad someone actually understands what I'm trying to say through all my rantings and wanderings, thanks Phantom!

[CraigFaris]

Dutchy, I pretty much agree with every reply you have given, but would like to clearify a couple of points. >>quote by Jonathan: "The CG was horrible, the rest was excellent. The sound, excellent, the costumes, excellent, the sets, top notch, the CG was the only thing lacking OTHER THAN the plot." --- and Dutchy's response: Can you give an example on where CG was used? I'm not even sure if I know... the breathing in the water was one I think.<< Titanic had over 600 special effects shots, more than any other movie prior to it's making (Even more than both JP films), but they were so effective that many of them went totally unoticed. (the point of special effects in the first place) Lets take a look at the leaving the dock scene with everyone onboard and on the docks waving -- Not real, a CG. The water around the ship --again not real, a CG. In order to make the water look real, a special logarithm code (developed by the US Navy to study submarine wakes) was used and almost all of the water seen with the ship was a computer graphic. The helicopter fly over with everyone on board, smoke coming from the stacks, flag waving, sea gulls, ocean foam and waves -- totally CG. A forty foot model shot from upside down was the only real thing in the entire sequence. As a matter of fact the people at Industrial Light and Magic said the CG in Titanic were the best they had ever seen. This is not to say that Star Wars' CG was not impressive as well. There were over 1200 special effects shots in it, but this is 1999 not 1997 and computers have come a long way in two years. >>>> quote by J: "What the hell are you talking about? The Phantom Menace is one of the best movies of all time, it had an excellent story line just like the other 3 SW movies. I have a serious feeling you don't know crap about TPM. You saw it about 3 times, and you are sitting here bashing it. You expect to win an argument when you probably don't even know half of what I do about the movie? Puh-lease." and "I saw it 34 times? You would if you had seen it about 10 times."<<<< Thirty four times! Well, I would say that Jonathan is a true fan of this film and if he wants to "invest" around $240 on a subject that he really, really, must love, then more power to him. But don't watch Titanic once and presume to be an expert on how terrible the special effects were. If I had seen Titanic 34 times I would be pretty sick of it too! >>>> And you quoted me: "TPM didn't make as much as Titanic simply because it didn't have as broad a market!" "You can berate Titanic as much as you like, think it was only a fluke, that it was only a "chick flick", but the numbers don't lie." "The summer would have provided only more opportunity for the silly girls to flock to see it." <<<< Yes I did contradict myself, because even though Titanic had an extremely wide demographic and attracted people who hadn't been to theaters for decades it's "Primary" market was still Women. My point should have been clearer, that I felt that these Young women (excuse the term "Chicks") would have taken even more advantage of their summer vacations to drag the male readers of this thread to see a film that didn't have a single space ship in it! But overall, I want to say that I appreciate the fact that my comments, in obvious defense of Titanic, have not enraged the readers of this thread to verbally "Tar and Feather" me. I have been quite surprised at how many readers have actually agreed with those posts. It has made for an interesting discussion. On a personal note, I am a graphic designer by trade, but reciently finished my first novel entitled, The Speed of Light. This inspired me to write two short stories, which to my astonishment, both won literary awards from the South Carolina Writers Workshop. My second novel, Spectrum, is in progress.

[Comrade Smoke]

Conflicts in SW forums... But don't end up sending nukes to each others... And be sure not to post all night... Take your vitamins... TPM is movie of the decade... bye...

[Kyp Durron]

Star Wars is a great story about a girl and a boy, a father and his son, teacher and apprentice, a boy and his mother, the journey of two droids, the journey from boyhood to adulthood, good vs evil, sister and brother, primitives vs technology, love vs hate. Titanic is a story about a girl and a boy...and a boat. Maybe we shouldn't compare the two???

[Scarloc]

Perhaps someone should have said that 6 months ago?

[JonathanLB]

I lose, I don't want to debate any more about this. I'll give a few final thoughts, but that is it. BWP did NOT make more money than both Titanic and TPM. Titanic made $350 million profit, TPM about $300, BWP $110. That isn't even close. BWP x 6 made more money than both combined, I believe, but not alone! If you mean the profit ratio, yes, that is way bigger than any movie ever made, lol. Dutchy, you are a TPM detractor, I can tell that, but you can't deny what a big movie TPM was, if you saw half of the press articles I have collected you would change your mind. You just don't get it, you don't live in the States, maybe that's why. This movie was by far the biggest event of the decade at the movies. Titanic was the most successful movie at the box office by far of the decade, but that doesn't make every other movie a lesser movie. In fact I'd argue that Jurassic Park, with it's relatively puny $350 million or whatever, is almost as big as Titanic, in terms of a movie, and it is bigger in cultural impact by far. Not to mention the book sold 10,000,000 copies which also goes a long way to proving that, imo, it has had a more profound influence than Titanic. I can also prove that in terms of what the movie did for the business, of course JP's effects were far more revolutionary than almost any movie before it. Probably even more so than any movie but TPM, because there certainly were more advancements in TPM than any other movie in history, but JP would have to be right there, in terms of the newage movies. I guess one would have to believe that ANH did more for the effects business than any movie ever, but I think in terms of CG it would be TPM, then JP... Dutchy, for the record what I said about people predicting TPM making over $1 billion in the states was right from Variety, May 19 I believe. Those people, obviously, didn't know much about the box office, I am just merely saying that some people got their expectations a BIT high. I can see there are a massive number of TPM bashers on this forum, or from what I have seen, and that is very disturbing. CC.net may be a corrupt place at times, but at least they're true SW fans, basically every one of them. In fact, yes, every one of them. Go back to your TPM bashing, losers. Titanic sucks too, it isn't even close to as good as any other blockbuster, CERTAINLY not even close to as good as the 4 SW movies, the best 4 movies ever made. I'm going to go watch some Jackie Chan movies, I love Jackie Chan, he sure beats the pants off that sissy Leo. But I guess it depends on your "orientation" if you know what I'm saying, if you're straight as an arrow or crooked as a boomerang.

[jjwr]

OK Jon, you were doing good, until this thread. You were making some rational arguments, making some sense, then you decide to go out and label seemingly everyone here a TPM basher and a homosexual? Or did I read that wrong? "I lose, I don't want to debate any more about this. " I'll take that as a concession. To the BWP comment about making more than Titanic and TPM, I was trying to make a point which seemed to have missed. You seemed to like using the term fact, and saying that certain things were a FACT and that they're no longer in dispute. But you obviously haven't pulled out the dictionary on this one, a FACT is something that can be proven, right or wrong. It can be proven that BWP made more money than TPM and Titanic. Admittedly proven wrong, but that doesn't change that its a fact. Saying something is a fact doesn't automatically make it the truth. Its a fact that I play in the NBA to. Back to opinions, why do you love to bash people because they share a different opinion than you? Is it so hard to believe that not everyone likes TPM or thinks its the greatest movie in the world? Just because someone shares a different opinion than you, and may disagree with something about TPM or say Titanic did something better than TPM does not make tham a TPM basher. You have such a narrow view of things its pathetic. After your post yesterday I thought of you as a more rational person, even thought better of you, then I got reminded by this post how much of a **** head you are. If anything your not the true SW Fan, in the world of diversity that is SW I would hope that a supposedly true fan of it would have a diverse mind, but I guess I'm wrong. If your what a true SW Fan is supposed to be, than I'm glad I'm not. I'd rather stay here with all the other TPM Bashers who can see both sides of the fence and know what a opinion means. "I'm going to go watch some Jackie Chan movies, I love Jackie Chan, he sure beats the pants off that sissy Leo. But I guess it depends on your "orientation" if you know what I'm saying, if you're straight as an arrow or crooked as a boomerang." Now this comment I still can't believe you said. Are you that narrow minded that your going to call all the guys who liked Titanic homosexual? All the guys who disagree with your views on TPM homosexual? Do you realize that being homosexual has absolutely nothing to do with any of this? Why don't you grow up, and maybe learn what diversity and open minded mean.

[CMJ]

I waded through this entire thread for the first time in about a week. Some interesting stuff is here. First off, let me say that I do believe that TPM was just a blockbuster. A HUGE one....but not a phenomenon. TITANIC was a phenomenon, BWP was a phenomenon, hell FORESST GUMP was a phenomenon(no one expected ANYTHING from that film). TPM was a very special blockbuster with it's unusally small drop-offs and such. Let me also go on record as saying that I found TPM's plot very deep(the second deepest of all the plots) so I disagree with JJ on that one, though I agree with him on most fronts(the boxoffice ones anyways....TPM is one of my favorite 50 or so films of all time). I also think you can't discount TITANIC's Boxoffice by saying it was the teen girls. I'm SOOOO sick and tired of that excuse. The reason it did so well is that people who NEVER see films in the theatre went and saw it. My grandparents who hadn't seen a flick since ET in the theatres saw it. THAT'S why it did so well. Whe you reach the demographic of people who don't see movies....THATS when something special is born. I'm still trying to understand why Jon called TITANIC lovers homosexuals.... It's actually quite amusing to me. Jonathan...I saw TPM 6 times...thats nothing to you I know, but it's only the second movie I've ever seen that many times in the theatre. I saw TITANIC 8 times! Does that make me gay? My profound love for the opposite sex tells me not...but maybe you know better...LOL! Oh Jon, you were finally starting to tone down your rhetoric...what happened? Anyways...not that anyone is gonna read this whole thread...AGAIN....just to see what I said...but I just wanted to put in my 2 cents...