Jedi Shadows

[Tionne Thanewulf]

I don't know about you guys, but I'm sick and tired of Jedi being kicked around. Throughout cannon we have REPEATING near-extinctions of the Jedi and they really don't learn anything, now do they?

When Cade seems to be the only sensible member of the Skywalker family, you know something must be wrong. anyway, clickie 1

Soooo....my idea would be the re-establishment of Jedi Shadows.
Let's see what wookie articles says clickie 2

Here's a set of FAQ I came up with just to summarize my argumentation

Why do we need Jedi Shadows?
Like a number of people pointed out already, we need a different kind of Jedi. We have to decide whether to go with the vegan, tree-hugging kind that ended like it did(more than once), or do we embark on a more radical route. And by radical I don't mean going all ninja, but with an elite squad being tasked with the most secretive missions.

Who would be allowed as a Jedi Shadow?
The Council would decide. Like in the cannon. It's there, isn't it? Better give them something to deliberate on, otherwise they will be just discussing modern poetry and drinking tea.

From a personal point of view, I'd like for Tionne to take that path, again Council permitting IC. Which brings me to another question.

Who is IC fit to be a Jedi Shadow?
Well, from what I've seen, there are a number of characters who aren't exactly pink fluff. People who feel their character wants to take a more proactive, albeit covert role... they should make IC transition smooth and believable. Obviously Oh-I-wanna-be-Jack-Bauer-now one-threaded scenario is not going to work.

What would Jedi Shadows do?
Smack the hell out of darksiders. Make the Inquisitoriate think. Have LD scratch her head and think ''Wow, I can't make a doormat out of a Jedi any more...'' In a way, JS would be anti-Inquisitors. Those select few who had enough of riding jewel-encrusted ponies across the rainbow.

You said that the ultimate, long-term goal is to re-establish the Republic to some extent. This is the way to go. Of course, very few people would know about this. Think of Men in Black.

Discuss.

[Drin Kizael]

That's already pretty much where i thought your character was going anyway.

Though for those initiates who are still young, and can be saved from going down that road (looks askance at Corell), it's not something Drin would encourage.

[Corell Capstan]

OHH BOY

[Droo]

First of all, I love the idea. Second of all, while I think it suits Loki's perspective of the Jedi and how they should be moving forward, I don't think he's the covert type if he can help it. He's a warrior... not James Bond!


I typoed that James Boned lol

[Loklorien s'Ilancy]

I rather like this idea, but I can see Drin's side of it as well. Would this maybe something that the older Jedi decide to do? I'm not sure the best way to explain it, but maybe kind of like the X-Men? There's this school for the gifted, with the teachers and instructors having that night job on the side of being superheros, only we've got the Wheel and a select amount of instructors/most knights/masters being shadows? I can certainly see not all of the council being 100% for this, but the necessity of it would outweigh their issues with the concept?

Of course I might be reading this all wrong. If so, just ignore me

[Droo]

ps. First mission for Jedi Shadows: scouting out the place they have Serena locked away, mebbe?

[Captain Untouchable]

Edit:

So, it took me so long to write that, everyone else hopped in to say the exact same in much shorter sentences.

The only extra coinage I'd like to throw in is the notion that this might give the Inquisitors someone to regularly clash with, rather than having to wait for a convenient on-the-run Jedi to happen by.

I like s'Il's idea of the Council not being 100% for it. What about taking it a step further, and having someone - like s'Il - involved in setting it up, as a sort of pro-Rebel Alliance sect within the Wheel? She's already a Jedi fighting alongside the Rebels, and I would expect the Shadows would do much the same.

Edit 2:

Re: Droo... my only reservation regarding the Serena thing is that it might over-extend the lead in. Maybe say "Hmm, these people were used to scout out where Serena was being held, and they did a good job," in hindsight afterwards, and use that to lead into the Shadows' creation?

[Dasquian Belargic]

Lileana DeVille

Just btw.. LD is not on the Wheel, or out as a Jedi. She is part of the Alliance

[Droo]

Re: Droo... my only reservation regarding the Serena thing is that it might over-extend the lead in. Maybe say "Hmm, these people were used to scout out where Serena was being held, and they did a good job," in hindsight afterwards, and use that to lead into the Shadows' creation?

You're right, the last thing I'd want to encourage is dragging out any story longer than it has to be... dragged out. I cannot end a sentance on a word like "to" or "be"!

Anyway, yeah, it was just a stab in the dark to offer them a mission idea right off the bat. I'm like... the roleplayer who just keeps giving.

[Loklorien s'Ilancy]

Another thought.

We already have Shadow Squadron, so in the interest of not creating any confusion, would it be better to call them something else?

I'm partial to Grey Jedi (or simply Greys), myself.

[Drin Kizael]

Edit:
Re: Droo... my only reservation regarding the Serena thing is that IT MIGHT OVER-EXTEND THE LEAD IN.

Maybe say "Hmm, these people were used to scout out where Serena was being held, and they did a good job," in hindsight afterwards, and use that to lead into the Shadows' creation?

Dingdingding.

Yes, over-extending the pace of a thread as well as the number of threads one gets involved in has been the biggest pitfall of these forums since pretty much day 1. For more laid back RP, I guess that's not a big deal. But in the middle of a big planned event where we want as many people in the group on the same page as we can get... not so much.

I would agree that should there be any group of shadows formed, it would be as a result of the Serena thing, not a lead in to it. We don't have any yet and we can't transform you into one over night... except Tio who practically is one already, the way she describes herself.

EDIT: And Sil raises a great point. Do we really, really need this when we already have a Watchman... which sounds like pretty much the same thing. Seriously, not every skillset needs it's own title.

[Captain Untouchable]

Not every skillset needs it's own title, true. However, at least part of the suggestion is that there is some sort of formal group / order / structure of these: something that people are inducted into, appointed to, etc. We've got to call them something, surely?

Cool a term as it is, "Grey Jedi" implies someone who uses the dark side and the light side of the Force. While some "Shadows" may well be Grey Jedi, some may not be; you can be reckless and impulsive without having to be a little bit evil at the same time.

I disagree that a Watchman is "pretty much the same thing". Yoda was the Watchman of Kashyyyk for example, and he's most definately not a Jedi Shadow by any stretch of the imagination. That said, using the Jedi Watchman moniker might be a good way to go - particular given the OOC connotations of the term.


Edit:

Going a step further, and drawing in Drin's concern about students... what if it's a choice you make once you become an actual Knight? Padawans can still work with the Watchmen, without necessarily having to be a Watchman.

Then we can use some slight variation on the name, and call them a "Knight Watchman", or something (to differentiate from a true "Jedi Watchman")?

[Anj]

All I know is that I want a part of this. Seeing as it will be a scout, and though it seems like it'll be an "instructor" specialize thing - I feel like my character with his Alliance background could fall in well with all this.

[Loklorien s'Ilancy]

I just threw Grey out there as a starting point, since Shadow is already being used. I'm perfectly fine with Watchman too, since it makes less work in having to suss out a name.

[Drin Kizael]

If the only distinction is that they use the dark and light side, the term Gray Jedi I am pretty sure was already used somewhere, and it makes sense.

It really, really... no really, should not be a move that a Padawan much less an Initiate can make on their own with the blessing of their master or the council. Tapping the dark side on purpose and still expecting to be an agent of the Force in the process is something that should be exceptionally rare, which only a special few can do. It would have less to do with power and more to do with control and experience.

I know how appealing it must sound, but it's contrary to a whole lot of SW canon and should be handled extremely delicately. Any character who has a dark side incident in their past (like Drin) struggles with it for the rest of their lives. Timothy Zahn went into a brilliant analysis of how fucked up Luke's judgment was for most of his adult life as a result of his arrogance in purposely immersing himself in the dark side, thinking he'd come out okay.

Edit sidebar: I actually hate that Zahn had to do that. Specter and Visions were basically written to fix everything that KJA screwed up in the SW universe. Keven Anderson forced the horribly conceived idea from Dark Horse of how a Jedi can so "easily" control both the dark and the light side like he was writing a video game, not a novel. Grrrr!

That said, obviously it can be done. There's plenty of precedent. And these are far more desperate times for Jedi than they've faced in a century or two. And... uhm... Drin might even be able to help show you how to do it.

But he'd need a LOT of convincing IC. A character would have to not only convince him to do it in the first place, they would have to convince him that they can handle it.

[Eragon_Dushall]

I like it and once my character makes it over to the wheel from the rebellion then i would be all for it and hopefully a member. Especially if Dushall can convince S'Ilancy to be his master and teacher.

[Captain Untouchable]

If the only distinction is that they use the dark and light side, the term Gray Jedi I am pretty sure was already used somewhere, and it makes sense.

It really, really... no really, should not be a move that a Padawan much less an Initiate can make on their own with the blessing of their master or the council. Tapping the dark side on purpose and still expecting to be an agent of the Force in the process is something that should be exceptionally rare, which only a special few can do. It would have less to do with power and more to do with control and experience.

I know how appealing it must sound, but it's contrary to a whole lot of SW canon and should be handled extremely delicately. Any character who has a dark side incident in their past (like Drin) struggles with it for the rest of their lives. Timothy Zahn went into a brilliant analysis of how fucked up Luke's judgment was for most of his adult life as a result of his arrogance in purposely immersing himself in the dark side, thinking he'd come out okay.

Drin, have you actually read the linked Wookieepedia article?

To draw your attention to the most relevant sentence: Though labeled as Shadows, the duty of these Jedi was in fact the opposite as they were defenders of the light side of The Force.

You seem to be arguing against the use of the Dark Side of the Force... which doesn't even remotely relate to the proposal at hand, at all. Sure, people who already use the dark side might be well-suited for the role, but I don't think anyone is proposing that using the dark side is in any way central or essential (or even implied) in the Jedi Shadows' role.

I think you may have your wires crossed somewhere.

[Drin Kizael]

Okay I misread your comment about using light and dark, Cap. Sorry. I was confused myself because I didn't remember it being in that article either. NM on that point.

Though it does illustrate that Gray Jedi would be a bad name. If that's he conclusion I wrongly jumped to, I guarantee others would, too. I'm thinking Jedi Shadow would be less confusing, now that I really think about it.

Watchman is kind of a pointless distinction in the post-Imperial era. It would make no sense to assign territories. So I can see why you'd want to find something new to distinguish yourself. All labels aside, I could pretty much tell what kind of a character Tio wants to write from the get go... and this doesn't seem like all that big of a swerve for her. And it fits with the conversation I had with her in that thread just the other day.

So, backtracking... it still would not be something that an initiate or padawan would be trained for out of the gate. It still sounds like the kind of position the council (or whoever) assigned after seeing how Knights perform. I stand on that part of my assessment.

And Sil would certainly be experienced enough to be a good choice to train candidates for it, too.

[Loklorien s'Ilancy]

I'm with Drin on the considerations of folks becoming one of these types of Jedi. It's a dangerous position for any to put oneself into; attacking first, in essence. I imagine a period of observation from the elder Jedi would take place, as it would be a good indicator of who is suitable.

s'Il spends a lot of her time aboard the Dauntless (and most of her time on the Valiant whenever she is visiting the Wheel) so it's a good opportunity for her to take Knights one more Alliance-oriented missions to see how they handle themselves in an environment that isn't a dueling mat.

[Captain Untouchable]

Watchman is kind of a pointless distinction in the post-Imperial era.

Isn't that true of pretty much any kind of title that the Jedi on the Wheel might want to use?

How many of the people we call Knights and Masters have actually passed the Trials and been ratified by the genuine Jedi Council? How many of our Padawans would actually have been accepted for training under the old Order, given their age?

It's pretty much the status quo in the Wheel to take an old term and use it "wrong". The Jedi desperately want to cling on to echoes of the past; referring to these Jedi Agents as "Watchmen" would be absolutely in keeping with that.


Besides, even under the old Order, it was a largely honourary thing. Going back to the Yoda example: because of his service on the Council, he didn't actually spend that much time actively patrolling or watching over his Sector. Ki-Adi-Mundi and Jorus C'baoth were also Watchmen, but they performed missions all over the galaxy.

In a similar vein, we could always - if we chose to use the term - make these Jedi the "honourary" Watchmen of the key members of the Rebel Alliance. The founding members were Alderaan, Corellia, and Chandrila; those might be good worlds to start with. Then, as we added more Watchmen, we could expand to include Ithor, Mon Calamari, Sullust, and Bothawui; and then (in time) potentially Onderon, Hapes, Kashyyyk, Naboo...

The Wheel is trying to make itself look as grand and genuine as possible. "Pretending" that we've restored the Jedi Watchmen - even if it's in name only - could be one easy way of doing that.

*shrug*