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Thread: Arrow/Flash/Legends of Tomorrow

  1. #41
    TheHolo.Net Poster

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    Constantine on Arrow! *kermit flail*

    Okay, so it did feel a little bit odd having Constantine there... but having those little jangly bits of Constantine music in there, having John sass thrown at Oliver... it ticked all of the boxes I wanted it to. Also, the fact that [One of Oliver's tattoos comes from Constantine?! First Oliver gets rid of the Shado tattoo, and now this.] Well played Arrow, you have tapped into the thing that was bugging me that I didn't even realise was bugging me. And as if the novelty value of John and Oliver wasn't enough... it was directed by John Bedham. As in, director of Short Circuit and WarGames. Congratulations the CW, you have won at Jace appeal novelty nerd bingo.

    Kinda liked the character development this week as well. Happy Oliver, "I'm only judgemental for rational reasons" Oliver... he's slowly migrating towards the way I'm trying to write him, so I'm all for that. He'll never make it all the way to comic book Oliver, but my inner fanboy grows happier with each passing episode.

  2. #42
    Supergirl
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    My delayed thoughts .

    Flash: Yaaay Harrison Wells! I've actually been thinking Arrow has been better quality than Flash this year so far, but this was finally the episode where Flash took the lead again. I adore Harrison Wells being a dick. It's brilliantly ironic that the evil, Eobard Thawne Wells was actually a nicer guy than the real Wells! Although I still think he's got something to hide. There's a little look from Cisco when Wells suggests Barry uses his mirage ability, because only the Reverse Flash knew how to do that, that to me was a hint maybe not everything is as it seems. He also didn't seem to balk when talking about the Reverse Flash, like he knew who he was.

    My theory on Zoom remains he's not from Earth 2 either. Wells thinks he created Zoom because Zoom showed up after the Earth 2 particle accelerator exploded, but we don't know for sure that's true. Given his suit is the same as Earth 1's Flash (same lightning bolt and ear bits), not Jay Garrick's Flash, I think he's from yet another dimension, or some kind of twisted character from Earth 1 (Eddie, or some kind of evil remnant of Reverse Flash).

    Patty Spivot is growing on me too. I didn't like her at first, but now she's quite fun. Only thing I didn't like this episode was the usual problem of 'Barry should be able to defeat this villain in 0.2 seconds but instead can't for some reason' the show often does. Oh, also, they say Jay Garrick could run at the speed of light, but Barry is faster. So does that mean Barry can run faster than the speed of light?


    Arrow: I was looking forward to this one and found it really disappointing! Constantine is barely in it, and his appearance just feels so small and minor it's really dull. Restoring Sara's soul is a piece of cake and he's around for all of five minutes. And his appearance in the flashbacks just feels cartoony, since apparently Constantine five years ago travels to tropical islands still in his same shirt and tie. I mean, I get the comic book character wore that, but they could vary it a bit...

    I also really dislike that suddenly Felicity has lost all her tech skills and goes to her own sub-Felicity for help for no apparent reason. In the past she could do everything herself, there was nothing Felicity couldn't hack, even when it wasn't computer related. But now, suddenly, she's totally reliant on the guy who's not Moss from the IT Crowd but totally looks like him.

    But at least Sara's back, Thea keeps being my favourite character on the show, and I am looking forward to what happens next.

  3. #43
    As far as Felicity delegating stuff to Curtis... I think that's more about time than about ability. We don't see her do it, but she's the CEO of a multinational corporation, who spends her evenings helping her boyfriend fight crime. Remember how much she was struggling to juggle things last season, when she was torn between her PalmerTech responsibilities and her Team Arrow responsibilities? It's now worse... but rather than showing Felicity continuing to struggle, we're seeing a Felicity who is taking charge of her situation, and is making use of the resources / subordinates that she has at her disposal.

    It's not that she can't do stuff... she just doesn't have the time.

    As far as restoring Sara's soul not taking long enough... that kind of stuff didn't really occupy that much of an episode in Constantine, either. The amount of time that stuff took was perfectly in keeping with Constantine - it's just that instead of Constantine being the one who helped to track the monster down, he wasn't called in until after Team Arrow had already handled it.

    True, it was more like one of those "Felicity shows up on The Flash" type episodes rather than a full-blown crossover... but that was kinda the way it had to work. If Team Arrow had been too reliant on Constantine, it would have ballsed things up for the whole ongoing Damien Darhk stuff. They needed to demonstrate that the main characters aren't going to need to phone up Constantine every time something bad/magical happens... I think that's about as much as we could reasonably have expected out of Arrow, all things considered. He got about as much screen time / involvement as any other guest character would have.

  4. #44
    Supergirl
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    I think the show could do a better job of... well, showing that. If you came in in season 4, you'd have no idea Felicity was meant to be the tech genius she was.

    I still wish Constantine had been in it more. I get the logic, but bringing him in for a ten minute stint just felt a bit underwhelming. Maybe they'll surprise us though and he'll be back for the finale as a surprise or something. That'd be awesome. I'd love to see Constantine vs. Darke

  5. #45
    Supergirl
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    Also, to fuel further speculation, check out this image of Zoom's full costume I found:

    http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a64...pspyfnxrvw.jpg

  6. #46
    Bear in mind though that between them, Flash and Arrow have eighteen episodes to lay all of the groundwork for Legends of Tomorrow. They've got to bring Sara back from the dead, establish Ray's shrinking powers, show that Captain Cold isn't all bad, introduce Hawkman and Hawkgirl and establish what they are about, get past the whole "Robbie Amell is too busy filming X-Files, we need someone new to be the body half of Firestorm"... all of that while also setting up the big bad and main storyline for what will happen for the rest of Season 2/4.

    There's not really room within that for a "proper" Constantine episode... and the fact that they even tried to get Constantine to guest appear at all is pure, 100% fan service. There's no financial benefit to it, no ratings boost for Arrow, no struggling Constantine show to help out... they did it because it was a nice, fun thing to do for the fans. If they'd waited until after Christmas, they would have had more room to do an episode where Constantine was involved more... but they decided not to wait, and gave us our fan gratification now.

    I would bet money on the CW finding a way to give us more Constantine - maybe after Christmas, maybe in Legends of Tomorrow season 2. Unless there's some sort of complicated rights issue, those guys will find a way to make it happen, because they're super fans themselves. No one forced the writers to include Constantine at all though, they went out of their way to do it. A "not good enough for your tastes" Constantine episode is still better than no more Constantine ever, eh?

    Quote Originally Posted by Supergirl View Post
    Also, to fuel further speculation, check out this image of Zoom's full costume I found:

    http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a64...pspyfnxrvw.jpg
    I still don't entirely by the "it's evil Barry" argument. Yeah, it does look like an Earth-1 costume, but I just don't buy that it's Barry wearing it. For starters, if it was Barry I don't think the logo would be reversed: he'd wear a black version of his own costume, not a black version of Reverse-Flash's costume. More than that though, the guy in that suit is beefy. There's a promo photo of Zoom wrestling Barry to the ground and just... there is no amount of anything that could make Grant Gustin's skeleton have that much muscle on it. The chest and the shoulders are too broad... I just don't buy it.

    I like the theory that it is some version of Black Flash / Black Racer (the grim reaper for speedsters), and that it's "wearing" Eddie's body after he got sucked into the vortex. I like the idea that it's some speedster from another reality too, trying to Jet Li some stuff. The idea that it has something to do with Barry's dad too is a cool one... just because Old Flash versus New Flash would be pretty spiffy.

    My personal favourite theory right now is the Earth-0 one. The idea that the universe/reality/Earth that Barry left in the finale is not the one that he returned to. By going back in time and making it so that there was yet another extra Flash in his house the night his mother died, Barry created a "new" reality, and he returned to the future of that one. His original timeline continued on without him, though. In that Earth-0, Eddie and Ronnie are still alive (and happily together with Iris and Caitlyn), and Eobard Thawne successfully returned to the future. However, because the Flash never returned to Earth-0, that future was irrevocably broken, and so Eobard Thawne (with Harrison Wells' face) has turned himself into a black and demonic version of the Reverse-Flash, and is going around defeating every speedster out there so no one will ever be able to meddle with the timeline again.

    Kind of a crackpot theory, granted. Much as I like new Harrison Wells though, Tom was just too deliciously good as Eobard for me to believe that he's gone forever, and that Earth-0 work-around is a pretty easy (relatively speaking) way of bringing him back. It also keeps the pool of speedsters relatively small, which is relatively useful in the grand scheme of things.
    Last edited by Oliver Queen; Nov 5th, 2015 at 05:57:17 PM.

  7. #47
    Supergirl
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    But I think spending SO much time setting up a spin off instead of focusing on your own show is also a bit of a flaw, but I do get what you're saying. Although I do really hope we get more Constantine. I still think the crossover could have been done a little better. Little things like when Ollie phoned John, it'd of been nice if he'd been doing something. Anything, really, but something Constantine-y, instead of just standing statically in an alleway.

    As for Zoom, you may be right it's not evil Barry, but I do think he's got to be linked to Barry/Earth-1 Flash somehow, not Earth-2 Flash. Because of the costume similarities. I thought it's possible he's linked to Eobard/Wells too, I thought maybe some kind of 'Speedforce' remnant of him or something because of the way he was erased from history, but I honestly think the big reveal that Zoom is the exact same bad guy from season 1 would be anti-climatic. Eddie would work too, as some kind of left over/twisted version after being sucked in to a portal.

    One big hint is the eyes. They're brown and Caucasian. That actually rules out a lot of people. They actually look a lot like John Wesley Shipp's. It would be really weird, but it might tie in to why he left so jarringly in the first episode. Maybe Zoom threatened him to because they're the same person? It'd at least help justify Flash's crappest moment so far...

  8. #48
    Yeah, I was wondering if maybe Henry knew that Zoom was him, and thus his weird exit. It'd be cool to have an Old Barry versus New Barry thing. Only question mark in my mind there is like... doesn't Henry leaving make it worse? If Henry had stayed, then Barry would now it definitely wasn't his dad, he'd know that Zoom and Henry had definitely not been in the same places, so it's definitely not his actual dad gone evil. With Henry gone, there's the risk of that question of whether it really is Henry, and that moment of unknowing could be a moment that gets Barry killed. Also from a production standpoint, if Henry was in the show more often (ie. if he's the one filming all of those scenes in the Zoom suit, if those are actually his eyes rather than the eyes of a stunt double, etc), then wouldn't having Henry around in the story make it "safer", so that there's less risk of people seeing Shipp on set / in behind the scenes photos and being all "Wait, how come he is there when his character isn't?"

    On the flipside... having a different voice actor and a mask that covers most of his face, that kinda screams "you would recognise who this was" to me, and they have been putting a lot of story effort into the doppelgangers so far. So maybe it is an actor who has brown eyes... or maybe it's a stunt double, and the production team didn't worry about the eye colour because they were expecting it to be CGI'd over.

    As for investing time setting up the spinoff... maybe it is flawed, but there's only room in CW's schedule right now for a ten episode show. They used Arrow to set up the Flash... and on Arrow at least, the character intros thus far kinda fit in nicely anyway? Sara's storyline has mixed nicely with Thea's, and it's tied in nicely with Lance's storyline with Darhk, and the Ray storyline looks like it's going to force a confrontation with Darhk... I think they're actually balancing the set-up and the ongoing story quite well. The Firestorm story too... Stein was a really nice addition to the STAR Labs dynamic for the first few episodes, and they managed to have the story nudge along Barry's personal development a bit. They all work as the kind of stand-alone episodes that Arrow and The Flash would be doing at this point anyway, they just also happen to be setting up the groundwork for Legends of Tomorrow as well. They just "feel" off, because you know they're set-up episodes... if you didn't, you probably wouldn't think they were all that unusual.

  9. #49
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    I think they're using Tony Todd for Zoom's voice because last year people reversed the modulation they did on Reverse Flash's voice and we all knew it was Tom Cavanaugh. Also because Tony Todd has an awesome voice.



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  10. #50
    That's pretty much what I just said, Holly. They've cast a voice actor, so we won't recognise Zoom's voice. Which presumably means that Zoom is someone whose voice we would otherwise recognise. Same logic with having a mask that covers most of his face, to make it harder to recognise who is underneath. Hence - that kinda screams "you would recognise who this was" to me.

  11. #51
    Supergirl
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    With Flash though, I think the set up on Arrow was totally unnecessary. To be honest, I forgot Cisco and Caitlyn were even in Arrow first! You can come in to Flash fresh, without having seen Arrow, without a problem. I don't think the same will be said of Legends of Tomorrow.

    As for the reverse modulation, I didn't know people did that! I just thought everybody knew it was Tom Cavvanagh because it was obvious from the start. Even the writers said they weren't really hiding it. The question wasn't 'Is Harrison Wells the Reverse Flash?', it was 'HOW is Harrison Wells the Reverse Flash?'. This time, Zoom's identity really is a big secret.

  12. #52
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    This week's Arrow was exceptional. Everything was firing on all cylinders, and it really feels like all the plot threads are coming together in a neat and satisfying way. It also boasted some of the shows best fight sequences: some of the long shots were excellent, of Laurel in the hallway, and, particularly, Thea in the elevator!

  13. #53
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    Interestingly enough, this was the directoral debut of their stunt coordinator. He did a great job.

  14. #54
    Stephanie Brown
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    I think both episodes were pretty awesome this week.

    Flash has given me a new theory on what's going on. It was another episode with small, but slightly more obvious, hints this time that Earth-2 Harrison Wells might not be Harrison Wells after all. His moment with Cisco, perfectly imitating Eobard, his sudden turn on Grodd, where he suddenly knew all about his plans for Grodd as a supervillain and became the perfect Eobard impersonator, and the very end where he hints that he knows how the ring works. I'm hoping it's all hinting that he's actually Earth-2 Eobard. My little theory is that in the Earth-2 reality, he successfully killed Barry as a kid, and that means that Barry's Dad became Zoom. And that at some point, something has made him decide to live his life as Harrison Wells rather than carry on any plan. It might even be the point Earth-2 diverged from Earth-1. Maybe the reason it's got all that fancy hi-tech stuff is Harrison Wells has been using his knowledge of the future to make it a better place.

    Arrow the direction was awesome this episode, but I didn't think it was anything special in terms of plot. It was fun, it was awesome seeing them all kicking ass, and I'm glad Thea refused to become a murderer. But plot wise, I don't feel like much has actually happened this season. They're still at square one with Damien.

  15. #55
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    How excited are we for the Flash/Supergirl crossover?

    PRETTY EXCITED

    With Flash [going to Earth 2 next week, I'm sure Supergirl's world will be another Earth as well. Earth 3, as it were.]
    Last edited by Lilaena De'Ville; Feb 5th, 2016 at 04:47:15 PM.

  16. #56
    I'm not sure if [Supergirl will be another Earth or not. From a Flash audience perspective it makes sense, but the Supergirl audience hasn't had the benefit of a whole season about Earth-2 to familiarise them with multiverses. Also, it took a black hole time explosion to open the breaches to Earth-2, and the STAR Labs team are working on closing them... so unless Kara is on Earth-2 (which I'd be fine with), you need to somehow come up with a reason for Barry to get to "Earth-3", and then dumo a whole load of exposition into the Supergirl episode, which is usually a fairly exposition-light show.]

    Tbh, [it's not that big a deal if Supergirl is on Earth-1. Nobody in the entire world gave a crap about terrorists blowing up an earthquake bomb in Starling City, or invading it with supersoldiers. The CWverse seems pretty ignorant of what is happening in other cities - just like comic books - so finding out that Superman has been out there all along? I don't think it's that worldbreaking really. Besides, what's the point of a crossover if you can't borrow elements of each other's world to flesh out yours? Letting Flash/Arrow/Legends reference the DEO, letting Supergirl face off against members of the League of Assassins... the advantages of being on the same Earth outweigh the "oops, we nevermentioned Superman on screen" thing.]
    It's like that, and that's the way it is.

     

  17. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lilaena De'Ville View Post
    How excited are we for the Flash/Supergirl crossover?
    If they are doing it like the Arrow/Flash crossover, with an episode of each show dedicated to the crossover, then I'll watch the Flash episode, of course, but not the Supergirl one. I love the actress playing Supergirl, and I love her performance, but I couldn't stomach more than four episodes of that dreadful show.

  18. #58
    It's pulled a bit of an Agents of SHIELD actually, Droo.

    Episodes 5-7 are where things start changing. They start focusing more on giving Miss Benoist stories that she can show off her acting chops with, and focusing less on things like the obligatory love triangles. They stop trying to make Maxwell Lord "likeable", and just let him be a full-on sleazebag. Hank Henshaw's mystery takes some interesting twists and turns, as does Kara and Alex's dynamic with him - and David Harewood is given the opportunity to show some really compelling new sides to his character. The episodes all start slotting together in a much more satisfying way too - there's a lot more pay-off from one week to the next.

    Maybe the show just isn't for you... but I'd suggest trying to soldier through until Episode 7 if you can stomach it, just to see if the twists and turns win you over.

  19. #59
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    Fair enough, I'll give it another go. There were things I liked about it, but they were overshadowed by too many things I disliked. And, believe me, I went into this show really wanting to like it. It's funny you should mention Agents of SHIELD, though, I count myself amongst the rare few who enjoyed that show right out the gate. It was Arrow I struggled with in the first season: I went from love, to hate, to love again - all over the course of about 14 episodes.

    So, I'll check out the next few episodes, but I fear it will take a miracle for me to like James Olsen. I can make no promises there!

  20. #60
    The main problem with Arrow was a mix of relying too much on an obligatory love triangle, and not being entirely sure what they wanted to do with the characters they had. The chemistry with Tommy and Laurel worked too well, the chemistry with Oliver and Felicity was completely unexpected, the chemistry with Oliver and Slade in the flashbacks, etc, so a lot of things changed and evolved over the course of that first season.

    Supergirl is in the same boat. Hank's role in the story was changed because the producers liked his performance in the pilot and came up with a better idea. James starts out existing only to be a vertex in the unnecessary love triangle and to create romantic friction... but Lucy Lane gets brought in, Kara gets a new love interest (played by her RL partner) with whom she has actual chemistry, and various other bits and pieces change.

    If you look back on the Arrow pilot, it's almost not the same show: they made the show that the network would approve, rather than the show they ended up wanting to make. Supergirl is in a very similar boat... there was a lot of play it safe / tick the boxes for the stuffy old white men / etc type stuff at the beginning that, having proven they can bring in the ratings, having got their back-half pick-up, etc, they can now start shifting away from.

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